Join us in conversation with veterans from Bosnia-Herzegovina and Lebanon who have dedicated themselves to peacebuilding in their regions after ethnic conflict. The participants will discuss their efforts at building peaceful relations during postwar periods and will share insights about their pre-, post-, and wartime experiences and their decisions to seek and promote peace in their communities. Through this conversation, we seek to address important questions related to ethnonational politics, tolerance, peacebuilding, and the impact of wartime legacies on future generations. Note: Some of the panelists in this event speak in different languages.
ERIN GOODMAN: I now turn the event over to Professor Melani Cammett, director of the Weatherhead Center for International Affairs.
MELANI CAMMETT: Thank you so much, Erin, and thanks to all the participants in this panel. Also to the interpreters, as Erin mentioned. So I'm going to make a brief introduction, and then turn it over to our important discussion today.
We're very excited to host this event, this conversation with veterans from Bosnia-Herzegovina and Lebanon, who've dedicated themselves to peace building in their regions after conflict. I'm quite confident that we're going to learn a lot from their insights about their experiences before, during, and after the war in their respective countries, and along the way, we're going to address important questions about war, peace, and the impact of war legacies on future generations.
Before I introduce the speakers, I want to provide a very brief background to each of these conflicts, and it's not easy to do this because the narratives around these conflicts are contested. So I'm going to provide a brief overview, and overviews that have been shaped very much by the participants in the panel today.
So starting with the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, this war arose out of the breakup of the former Yugoslavia, which at the beginning of the 1990s, was one of the largest, most developed, and diverse countries in the Balkans. It contained a number of republics in a larger federation, of which Bosnia-Herzegovina was one. And it included a mix of ethnic groups and religions predominantly from the religions of Orthodox Christianity, Catholicism, and Islam.
And with the collapse of communism during the late 1980s and early 1990s, Yugoslavia experienced intense crises and the rise of militant nationalism. So what we saw there, and this has important echoes in the Lebanese case and others as well, was political leaders using nationalist rhetoric to erode a common identity and to fuel mistrust and fear among different ethnic groups.
So by 1991, with the breakup of the country looming, Slovenia and Croatia, two of the republics in the Federation of Yugoslavia, blamed Serbia for unjustly dominating Yugoslavia's government, and in turn, Serbia accused these two republics of separatism. In March of 1992, a referendum for independence was held in Bosnia-Herzegovina and was boycotted by Serbs from the country who wanted to stay in the Federation.
Over 60% of Bosnian citizens, and primarily Muslims as an ethnic group in that time, and Croats, voted for independence, sparking the war. From 92 to 95, the war in Bosnia ripped apart the country, and now, here we are, 28 years later since the end of the war, and Bosnia-Herzegovina continues to face trauma and unreconciled grievances that hinder inter-communal understanding.
So today, the narratives about the war have at least three different approaches reflecting the approaches of the three main ethnic groups, and we will hear from representatives of the different armies that participated in the war, the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the army of the Republic of Srpska, and the Croatian Defense Council.
The last thing I want to say about this war before turning to Lebanon is that, to this day, the total number of people killed is not yet established, which reflects the lack of consensus about the nature and consequences of the war. So the span of estimated deaths ranges from over 95,000 to as many as 250,000 people.
So let me briefly turn also to the war in Lebanon and provide a very short background. This war took place a little bit earlier, between 1975 and 1990, and it ended formally in 1989 with the Taif Accord signed in Saudi Arabia. Most reforms of that agreement are now incorporated in the political system of Lebanon, and about 256 organizations and militias took part in the fighting of that war. And if you are familiar with the course of the Lebanese war, it's actually more like a series of over 25 wars rather than one war.
The war began in 1975 with clashes between the Christian Kataeb or Falange party and armed Palestinians. The Christians wanted to protect themselves from the Palestinian armed presence in the country, while Muslim and leftist groups allied with the Palestinians, wanted to change the regime to get rid of the Christian dominance over the political system.
A number of foreign actors fought on Lebanese soil during the war, including Palestinians of various factions, such as the PLO, the Syrian army, the Israeli army, multinational forces the United States, France, and Iran. And again, here, we have wide ranging estimates of the number of people killed from 150,000 to 220,000. Also, about 600,000 people were injured, 900,000 displaced, some people migrated as a result of the war. 17,400 people approximately disappeared, and the costs of the war range into the billions and billions of dollars.
Many Lebanese believe that the civil war never really ended because of the lack of true reconciliation, ongoing clashes in the territory to this day, and the ongoing presence of armed factions. So we see, in both cases, wars that, in many ways, remain unresolved, and inter-communal tensions and other kinds of political tensions are very high.
I'm going to briefly introduce the speakers, and then we'll turn to the conversation. So first we have, from Lebanon, Assaad Chaftari. Assad is a peace activist, and he is the vice president of an organization entitled Fighters for Peace. He is former senior intelligence official from a Christian militia in Lebanon that was involved in the civil war, and his organization that he's going to be representing today includes ex-fighters from many different factions in the war.
And we have multiple people representing Bosnia-Herzegovina today. First, we have Janana Shabic Hamidovic, who is national project officer with the International Organization for Migration, and I'm very grateful to her for introducing to me these wonderful people participating in this panel.
We have Spasoje Kulaga, who is the founder and president of an organization called [NON-ENGLISH] in Bosnia-Herzegovina. He's a former member of the Army of the Republic of Srpska. We have Luciano Kaluza, who is a diplomat. Holds a master's of international relations and economic diplomacy, and he's the former consul general of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
We have Asim Parlic, who is an activist, former counselor with the Zavidovici Municipal Council. He's a former member of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And we have Mirko Zecevic Tadic who's an activist and President of the a Retired War Invalids 108th Brigade. He's a former member of the Croatian Defense Council.
So I'm going to start with a couple of questions. I'm going to direct specifically to the veterans participating in our panel today, and I'll open up with questions. I also want to emphasize to our attendees here today that we're going to try to leave some time towards the end of the conversation for your questions, for you to pose questions.
So let me start off with a question about what life was like prior to the war for each of you? Where did you live? What did you and your family members do prior to the war? And then if you could briefly tell us how the war started for you.
So again, we have a number of veterans participating, and I'm going to ask that each of you try to keep your answers very brief just so that we can hear from everybody today. Why don't I start with Assad representing the Lebanese veterans here? Thank you.
ASSAAD CHAFTARI: Yes, good evening, everybody. War, for me, it was a shock. I was 19 years old when it started, and we just thought that it would be clashes for some days as usual, and then our politicians would sit and solve it somehow, or distributing some things between each other. But sadly, it lasted what it lasted, until 1990.
I remember it was a Sunday, and we were coming back from church. And it was maybe the last good Sunday with the family that I had for many, many long years. Lebanon was known as the Pearl of the Middle East, but sadly, things were disrupted a lot. And until today, we were almost unable to recover. Thank you.
MELANI CAMMETT: Thank you so much. Can I turn to you, Spasoje?
SPASOJE KULAGA: [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
INTERPRETER: Good evening. Good day. It's still daytime. I would like to greet you all and thank you for this opportunity to exchange experience in this way and hear about our past.
Until 1992, I completed all of my education. I was a young man who had a job. I worked. I had very different plans for what my life was going to be. But just as you said, in our environment, in the former Yugoslavia, divisions began.
The war started first in Croatia and Slovenia, and since I live on the very border, my city of Derventa is on the very border of the Republic of Croatia, the war also began in our town. We never believed that there would be war in our territory when it started in Croatia. We thought it would never reach Bosnia and Herzegovina.
But in March of 1992, the war did come to my town as well, and as a young man at that time, I joined as a soldier. I joined what used to be the Army of the Republic of Srpska. It was the ethnic group that I belong to, and I believed that this was the safest place for me to be at that time.
MELANI CAMMETT: Thank you so much. Asim, can I turn to you? Is Asim connected?
SARAH BANSE: I don't think Asim is connected, and I think but Mirko is.
MELANI CAMMETT: So I'm going to turn to Mirko then. If you could share your experience about how the war started for you?
SARAH BANSE: I think we might be having some connection issues with Mirko, so maybe until we get a sign from Luciano, we'll go with Assad and Spaso for now.
MELANI CAMMETT: Apologies about all the technical difficulties. It's challenging with everyone dialing in from different parts. So let me turn to the war time then, and I'd like to invite everyone to join us here on the panel.
So perhaps we could actually start with some of the non veterans here, and then I'll turn to the veterans. Janana, would you share with us a little bit about your experience during the war? I understand that you were present during the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
JANANA HAMIDOVIC: Yes. First of all, hi to everyone, and everyone who tuned in to participate in the event together with us. I was 11 years old when the war started in the country. I was living in Touzla. This is my city of origin and where I was born, and I spent the entire war there.
There is a joke that I usually make with my friends, saying that we only remember nice and good times from the war there, I guess, because we were at that age. Honestly, I must say that, for me, remembering the wartime experience is not easy, and I think that I have strongly pulled out my defense mechanisms and pushed back memories from the war.
However, I would say that there is one particular day in the war, which is very strange for me, that I remember in its entirety in terms, I remember when I was in the morning until the evening of that event. It was 25th of May when the grenade fell in Touzla and killed 72 young people ironically celebrating a Day of Youth at that day. The youngest victim was barely a year old, and that's the day that I remember from, as I said, from the morning until the evening.
So other than that, yeah, I mean, it's not easy, as I said. And especially putting it in this context now, when you work in the peace building sector and trying to balance your own personal emotions of the war experience and opening yourself to listen to the same experience of the people that, at the time, you understood were on the opposite side. So that's why I was very much appreciative of the work that Pravi Paja is doing bringing together veterans that, at one point, were on opposite sides and now being able to speak about that experience and actually spread it out and have others share the same stories of how their experience in the war was.
MELANI CAMMETT: Thank you so much. I think anyone who's familiar with Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Lebanon, or many other places around the world that have experienced conflict know that these legacies are deep, and it's not easy to talk about this. And it's also not easy to do the kind of work that all these people are doing here. So it's all the more reason to commend them. Luciano, can I turn to you and ask you about your experience during the war?
LUCIANO KALUZA: Melanie, thank you. First of all, greetings for all participants, and also greetings for attendees that are participating and listen to our forum. I was 14 when the war started in Bosnia and Herzegovina, so I have a really good remembrance of the starting of the war, and let's end before war period. So as Janana said, we are trying somehow to remember the war period just according to some nice periods or some nice time in that period.
So I think that's, let's say, human brains function like that. You are trying somehow to forget that all things that are, well, are not adequate or not good for your growth. I was 17 when the war stopped. At my 17, let's say, that was the last year of the war, I was engaged in so-called civil protection that was actually a work platoon. And in that platoon, there were the people who were not member of the-- I grew up in city called Teslic that is one city in Republic of Srpska at the border with the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
And in that work platoon, there were engaged people who was not member of the Army of Republic of Srpska. There was mainly civilians. At the end of the war, the members of that work platoon was mixed from all-- at the end of the war, let's say, from all ethnics. And I was 17 when was, let's say, engaged. And went to the frontline and the first line to help, let's say, to the army.
There's one joke. It was summer. I was sitting on some hill. It was really nice period. It was really great time-- August.
And I was thinking what the youth in other cities in the world in the Europe doing right now, sitting somewhere at the sea, I don't know, swimming, having parties, and I'm sitting here in this forest. That forest actually was beautiful, but don't see it like that-- sitting here for what? Why? What will happen to me? And all those question when someone old as 17 that I was thinking in that period. So actually, that was the moment that stay really deep into my memory, and that's the moment that give me inspiration for later work in civil society in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
MELANI CAMMETT: Great. Thank you. Thanks so much for sharing that. I don't know if we have Mirko connected to the audio now.
Is it possible to turn to him? Or is he still not able to connect? OK. So let me know if we're able to get Mirko onto the audio.
So let me turn to Assad. And I know these are tough questions, but you've been in the business of handling tough questions for quite some time now. So I wonder if you could share your experiences during the war, if there's some things you could share with us. And later, we'll get to post-war experiences and your move towards peace building work, but if you could--
ASSAAD CHAFTARI: Yeah, of course.
MELANI CAMMETT: --yeah, share some experiences.
ASSAAD CHAFTARI: Yes. I think I'd better put off my-- stop my video because my internet is unstable. Can you hear me now?
MELANI CAMMETT: We can hear you. Those of you that are familiar with Lebanon probably know that there's a major economic crisis going on, and electricity is a major issue and telecommunications, so yes.
ASSAAD CHAFTARI: Many, many issues nowadays. So as a food soldier at the beginning of the war, being a student engineer, then an engineer, I immediately took part in organizing telecommunications, then some artillery. Then, I was in the nucleus that started the intelligence and security services of the Christian side. And I was number two all the way.
And our mission was to weaken the enemy and to defend ourselves. So you can imagine everything I did. The main issue, I think, was the clear conscience that I was at the end serving a holy cause because of trying to protect the Christians against the enemies who sadly, for me back then, the Palestinians, the pro-Palestinians among the Muslims, and the Communist groups, and so on.
And I could go home with a really clear conscience considering that what I was doing was a technical work to get rid of the enemies. I felt that not killing civilians was enough for a good cause. But sadly, now I know it was not the case.
The idea was-- it all started, I think, when I was very, very young in age. I don't think that a civil war or a war starts when the first bullets are shot. It was the first time I heard that there was another and that the other was so different, and it was starting to become dangerous for the integrity of my community and my country. So you can imagine the set of mind I was fighting with during this long civil war.
MELANI CAMMETT: Thank you so much. It sounds like a sense of threat and fear for the welfare and well-being of one's own community is an important motivator here and drives participation. So can I turn to you, Spasoje, to tell us about your experience during the war, how you got caught up in it, and what your experiences were like during '92 to '95 in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
SPASOJE KULAGA: [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
INTERPRETER: As I said, I am from Derventa. That is a city on the North of Bosnia and Herzegovina on the border. And we heard about the war in '91 when it was in Croatia. In the spring of '92, the war from Croatia came into Bosnia, as I said.
I felt the safest with my people in my ethnic group. And because of-- from the Second World War II that caused a lot of conflict among the people among Serbian, Croatians, and the Bosnians. And all these narratives were transmitted, and I found myself in the war.
I was the foot soldier. I was a soldier. And later on, during the fights in this area, opposing to me were the Croatians, the Croatian Defense Council, and the regular Croatian Army as well that came from Republic of Croatia. So this was a conflict between two armies.
We did not have a conflict where the civilians were perishing. But as we soldiers say that this was an army war. In this war in '92, I was young when the war started. And I frequently say, I do not celebrate my birthday because I went to war when I was 23. in the summer of '92.
Here in the fights in Derventa, I was also seriously injured. And I had my leg amputated above my knee, and all this changed my life. And I had to start and live a different kind of life, which was unknown to me.
And because of what was happening in Bosnia and Herzegovina, I was a member of the army in some way, and I was contributing in the administration-- more in the administration and not in the field because physically I couldn't. But in one moment, I had to devote myself to myself and my health, which was the consequence of the war. And in war, there are some rules.
But in the war, there are no rules. There should not be any mines in the war. However, on the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina, these rules were broken, just like in any other war. And I stepped on a mine, and I got injured. And that was my war experience.
In the war, there are terrible things and in this area also. And in that period, I saw a lot of ugly things, a lot of death of friends, of my school friends, of my acquaintances. And after some time, since Derventa and this area where ethnically Serbs, Croatians, and Muslims lived together, I found out that many of my school friends and friends from work also were injured or that they lost their lives.
MELANI CAMMETT: I'm very sorry. I'm sure this has been really difficult, so thank you for sharing that with us. And I don't know that we have Mirko or Asim with us now. It doesn't seem to be the case. I'm sorry.
So let me turn to moving beyond the wartime period, which is obviously extremely difficult and has long legacies. So let's start to get at some of those legacies. I'd like to hear what each of your lives has been like since the war. How have you lived with the memories of what you underwent during the war?
It's very clear that these memories are traumatic and that many people across Bosnia, and Herzegovina, Lebanon, and other societies in the world are living with traumatic memories. And if you could share with me something about how life has been like since 1990 in Lebanon, since 1995 in Bosnia-Herzegovina-- Assaad, can we start with you again? Are you able to hear me, Assaad?
ASSAAD CHAFTARI: Yes, now I'm hearing you.
MELANI CAMMETT: OK, great. So I was just asking about life after the war. How have you--
ASSAAD CHAFTARI: Yeah, but I did not get your question. Please, can you repeat it?
MELANI CAMMETT: Absolutely, yes. I'm turning to post-1990. The war has ended. And can you take us through something about your life after the war, how things evolved for you, and how you've lived with the memories of what you underwent during the war?
ASSAAD CHAFTARI: Yes. [AUDIO OUT]
MELANI CAMMETT: We may have a bad connection.
ASSAAD CHAFTARI: --though did not get all your-- yeah, I know. Sadly, yes. So I'll try to, but tell me if you hear me properly or not.
MELANI CAMMETT: We hear you now.
ASSAAD CHAFTARI: You hear me? OK. So luckily for me, I think that before the end of the civil war, I met a group called Moral Rearmament. Then, they changed their name into Initiatives of Change.
It's an international movement who convinced my wife to join them. then. You know how women do convince their men, so I followed.
And there, they started asking me some very peculiar questions like, you want to change the lives of others and change others and make them think like you and look like you and similar, but are you ready to change what's within you first? Of course, I never thought that I had anything to change in me. I was the perfect person. Little by little, they took me through a very difficult path of inner listening, maybe to that inner voice, or to God, for those who are believers.
And I discovered that I was very far from being pure, honest, unselfishness, and loving. I was killing in the name of my own face, maybe, or my own beliefs. And this also led me to look at the mirror. And this is where I was shocked to see a beast with blood on the hands. I almost did not recognize myself.
What has happened to me? How did I become like this? And I started thinking of changing. It was a long, long process. But during this process, I met the others who were, as I said, previously the Muslims, the pro-Palestinians, the Palestinians, the leftists, and so on. And this is where I discovered that most of what I thought about them was wrong.
I lived with a lot of prejudice, which was not necessarily true. Of course, we did not think like each other always, but there were many common things. And at the end, they did not want to throw us outside the country, but they needed changes in the constitution and similar. To my surprise, I discovered that they carried names and that I was able to sleep with them in the same room maybe.
And later on, I discovered that I was able to work with them and to love them. And when I started loving them, they disappeared. And by that, I mean that there were no other in my life between the brackets. This led me later on to realize that I was asked to apologize for my deeds and for everything I had done and ask for forgiveness.
And this is what I did in an apology letter that I addressed to my victims. And in the same letter, also, I said that I forgive those who had harmed me and my people. Of course, this message was also addressed to the young people because I wanted to prevent them from doing or going through the same cycle that I had gone through.
Change was very, very, very tough and very, very difficult, especially with all these bloody scenes of the war. And someone made a film in which I am part of, and he called it Sleepless Nights because of my experience of sleepless nights after the war, which, from time to time, occur again and again nowadays. Thank you.
MELANI CAMMETT: Thank you so much for sharing this with us. It's clear that you've done amazing work, both at the internal personal level and at the societal level. And in the work I've been doing on post-conflict, post-war intergroup relations, I'm finding that reconciliation is truly rare. But it sounds like you've reached that higher state, and it's quite impressive and a model for many people across the world, so thank you for that.
Unfortunately, I think we do not have two of our veterans from Bosnia-Herzegovina connected properly. So, Luciano, did you want to jump in here? I believe you're on mute. Luciano--
LUCIANO KALUZA: I'm in contact with Mirko, and I think that he will be able to speak. But he just don't hear us. So I will tell him now to start to speak about his experience, hoping that we will manage somehow to start it like that, OK? I will send him text now.
MELANI CAMMETT: OK, yes. We would love to hear a brief overview of what his life was like prior to the war, and how the war started for him, and just take us through to his life after the war. It would be wonderful to get his perspectives.
SARAH BANSE: It looks like he might still be connecting, so maybe Spasoje could give his answer, just given, if that makes sense.
MELANI CAMMETT: OK. Yes, Spasoje, if you could jump in. And then, Luciano, can Mirko step in after that? OK, thank you.
SPASOJE KULAGA: [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
INTERPRETER: Yes, I listened to the person from Lebanon, and I see similarities and the problems of the veterans in different parts of the world. Veterans problems, the soldier problems is very similar. The differences are slight.
I spent many sleepless nights after war very often, very frequent reminders for us here in Bosnia and Herzegovina where we live in places where we were in war, and we walk by where our friends died, where our friends got injured, where mishaps happened. And in one way, our memory is rekindled every day after the war in '95. In one part, I was trying to form a family.
I'm married. I have two children. And in one way here, I tried to rehabilitate myself. I had a job. Very often, I was in contact with my friends from war.
They were somehow some sort of support for me. And often, I hung out with them. We organized ourselves.
We had sports activities, and that was something that was a support for each other within the ethnic group. And he just broke up, I could not hear. He lost the connection.
SPASOJE KULAGA: That-- [AUDIO OUT]
INTERPRETER: OK. In this way, we tried to deal with the issues and challenges of the army.
So this life of veterans after the war is very difficult, and time was needed so that we can become stabilized. And we didn't have much support from institutions that dealt with our mental health. We ourselves had to find a way-- switch.
SPASOJE KULAGA: [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
INTERPRETER: --especially during anniversaries and some dates when we commemorate those killed, our friends during the commemorations. So during those moments, I later heard that from my children.
They said, during those days, we don't have our dad. He lives in a different world. Our family and the people around me noticed that war also impacted me. That's it.
MELANI CAMMETT: OK. Thank you. Luciano, I don't believe we have Mirko or Asim on the line. Did they want to convey anything? Or shall we just move on? And I believe you're muted.
LUCIANO KALUZA: --to go unmute somehow. I can't get Mirko or Asim. Unfortunately, I don't know what is the reason. But they will be there trying to connect. If they get connected, we will definitely give them the word to say what maybe to share with us their experience.
MELANI CAMMETT: OK. Well, let me turn to you then, Luciano, and then after, Janana, to talk about this question about life after the war and how you personally, from a different vantage point, have been living with memories and how people around you have dealt with post-war experiences.
LUCIANO KALUZA: I said to you that teenage period actually in my case, and I do believe in cases of many youth in the world is a very sensitive period in their life. As I said, I was 14 when the war started. And in that period, nothing was normal.
But in some period-- let's say, war started 1992-- already in 1990, end of the 1993, 1994, 1995, somehow we get used to live in that time. When you have no electricity for all time, when you have no water for all time, you are living somehow closed. And when the war start, somehow the life tried to get back to normal.
All the pubs and everything started to open, and it was a very difficult time for someone who not that in the last couple of years to start everything to work normal. And somehow, I like to say that period after the war was one of maybe the best period of my life because people was hoping that there will be something different. People was hoping that, OK, war is stopped. And now the situation, especially economic situation, will become much better.
On 1998-- actually, 1997 and 1998, I gathered a group of youth in my town, and we form a youth NGO. It was called Youth Association Teslic. We started to work as a youth NGO just to work. And I have to point this-- before the war, civil society organization like this one right now, they were not existing in the form that they are existing now. There was civil society organization existed existing in some other manners.
But after the war and with the strong influence of international community, I can say maybe all not-- well, I can't say all, but let's say many of NGOs that was formed after the war, that was formed under the influence of international community and international NGOs. So they started to make this NGO through the whole Bosnia and Herzegovina, giving them especially support and advise how to build NGOs. As I said, we were kids in that period, some 19 years old starting to do something.
We start to work on a project to write the project proposal to get some funds to start to do something with youth education trainings to travel. The main important thing for us in that period was to travel, to go somewhere else. The cities was closed in that period.
You can't go to the nearest city in the war. It was really complicated. And we wanted to travel.
As I said, as I was living in the town that was at the border of Republic of Srpska at the border with Federation, many of my colleagues in that period, due to consequences of war, they go to the, let's say, other side. And I want to see where they are now, what they are doing. Are they OK? That was some my friends from my street, from my buildings.
And I go to for-- I remember that period. The United Nations bus was organized from Teslic to the Federation to go there. And I went to that bus. I was-- I don't know. That was the second or third time that bus was going from Teslic to the Federation to go there to drink coffee to see how it's going on in Federation.
What is going on there? I went, drink coffee, get back. And after that, we start to communicate with the youth from the other entity.
I want to point this that before the war in Yugoslavia, there was a syntax that said that brotherhood and unity. That was some sort of ideal that we, the society, was forward and aim to. And my intention as someone who was formed youth NGO was not to find any type of brotherhood or unity with anyone else or, I don't know, just want to drink coffee, to go somewhere and to see how someone is living on the other side. So that was my and my friend's personal attention.
I personally started to work with NGOs, starting to write project proposals, working with youth, travel, educate myself, educate colleagues with me through the formal and non-formal education. And being a member as a member of NGOs give me some sort of different perspective from my colleagues and my friends that were not members of any NGOs. So actually, I wanted, as I say in my speech, the main reason for my engagement was so the youth in Bosnia and Herzegovina never had that experience that I have and that I passed.
I think that is not normal period, that is not normal experience, that is not for a human normal to live and to have it in their lives. That, for me, that is a period when you need to become a person grown, growth person with your attitude, with your personality. And you were stuck in that war time.
So my intention was just to work with the youth, to travel, to see, and to show to the youth and the people from the other side that we are not any monsters or whatever, just normal people who are trying to live their lives normally without seeking for that unity and brotherhood. That was not my intention. And it was never my intention. My intention was just to see other people, to see how they live and try to communicate, try to find something new.
And post-war period-- and can't divide. Maybe later, I will take a little bit more time. Post-war period, we can divide into several periods for me.
And that period is going a little bit like this after the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina because it was not always going up. Sometimes it was going down. But definitely, I will take a little bit of time at the end at the maybe last or question or something like that.
MELANI CAMMETT: OK, great. Thank you so much-- fascinating. So I'm going to turn to Janana now to take us through her experience since the war. And I want to add on another question that I'd like to pose to everyone on the panel for some brief answers as well because we're also starting to amass some really excellent questions in the Q&A that I want to turn to.
So, Janana, if you could tell us about your experiences after the war, how you personally have dealt with these difficult memories. And then also, I want to move into this question of why you chose to become active in peacebuilding. You are, after all, with the IOM.
You are the person that has connected me with these incredible veterans from Bosnia-Herzegovina. So clearly, you made that choice as well. And so I wonder if you could take us through to that. And then I want to briefly, after that, turn to the veterans and ask about their peacebuilding activities, what they do very briefly, and then we'll turn to the questions from the participants, from the audience.
JANANA HAMIDOVIC: Yeah, thank you. Actually, before preparing for this panel, I was thinking how-- and that question came to me a long time ago. And it's still something that I struggle to accept as a part of my identity is that, actually, I lived through the war.
And I think that's something-- I'm 40-plus years now. But somehow, I'm really struggling to identify myself as a person who has lived through the war. And I think it's a part of the defensive mechanisms that I spoke to before.
However, as opposed to what Luciano said, I don't know. For me, ever since I've finished primary school, I was a captain of our volleyball team. And in Bosnia, there was these newspapers called Mirko. That were distributed across the country by U4, if I'm not if I'm not mistaken. And they were interviewing students from primary schools, secondary schools, trying to bridge us and connect us through these different sports activities. And I gave interview for that newsletter, Mirko, in which said that I would really like to get to know my peers in the other entity, the entity in Republika Srpska.
And without getting consent of my parents, I have left my phone number and my home address for people to reach out to me and connect there. Yeah, sorry to say that after a couple of weeks, we have to change our phone number because we had landlines. Back then, there were no cell phones-- because I mean, I have received also positive phone calls. People really wanted to connect.
But also, there were people who called attacking me because of that. And my father was a military staff and is a veteran from the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And there was also some-- some of the messages was very cruel, also, toward that experience.
However, I have received a couple of letters from one girl from Rudo, which is on the border between Bosnia and Serbia next to Visegrad, and one guy from Knezevo and Zavidovici. Actually, we exchanged letters. And I keep those letters to date.
Now we are friends on Facebook that kind of remind us that we connected back in '95, '96. And so after living through that experience as a 14-year-old, I knew that peace doesn't have an alternative actually. Maybe it's weird to say that thing. But somehow, that's something that-- I was lucky not to lose anyone in the war from the close family. I lost some of the friends and acquaintances.
But however, I knew that going through that experience that there shouldn't be alternative to war-- to peace and that even though we are not, as Luciano rightfully pointed out that brotherhood and unity because apparently the war that demonstrated to us that was some construct, not apparently lived genuinely by everyone-- but at least there is no alternative to live peacefully with each other, to be able to communicate on the level of the human beings, understand each other. And think that all the peacebuilding trainings have taught me that I need to be able to understand the other side. Even if I don't agree with certain things, I need to be able to understand where is that coming from. Where is that experience coming from? And how that experience shaped the person in front of me to be able to understand our references, ultimately.
So I'm going to jump now fast forward for my work in IOM and how I met Spasoje. Some of our friends-- we had common friends that were also peacebuilding activists. So when I started working for IOM, we had this huge program in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Resilience Initiative, that-- after analysis of the context, we understood that politics in Bosnia. I have captured the narrative of the war. And that is very difficult to pull through that.
And so one common friend, Milan, who actually now works with IOM as well, but he used to be a really genuine peace activist in ex-Yugoslavia. He told me, you should meet Spasoje. So jumped in the car and drove to Derventa to meet with Spasoje. And we discussed about their work and everything that they are doing. And on my way back, when I came to our team and said, I met Spasoje. It's amazing. They do amazing things. We need to get behind them. We need to get them in front of the youth. It's amazing stories.
And one of our colleagues stopped me. And he said, is he a veteran from Army of Republika Srpska? And was like, I have no idea. And he was like, what do you mean, you have no idea? And I said, well, we talked so much about the war that we never actually get the chance to speak about belonging to army there and that. We spoke about what was the experience, how this needs to be brought back. And then told this to my dad.
And I told him, you know, it's the first time I ever heard a soldier who is not you. And I think that, yeah, the work that we keep doing and that we really stand behind the Pravi Paja, many people would say, but there are politics, and they are not entering into the politics spheres. And don't think that they should at this stage.
I think that them breaking the silence in terms of experience of veterans and what has that meant to them, how they live today and how that affected their families is something that kids and young people in Bosnia need to hear because when you-- I mean, experiences and people who still who have been born after the war unfortunately think that the war is a Nintendo game, that you die in this game of the war.
And then tomorrow, you get another chance. And I think that experience from the veterans actually need to break down those myths, that the war is not an option, not even a latest one, and that it doesn't make you a super hero, and it doesn't make you this macho, strong guy that-- and as opposite. It doesn't actually do anything to you but break you, as Spasoje was saying, and that you have to pull yourself back together because, as we heard, in Bosnia and Herzegovina, it's not that veterans have so much support through the mental health care system and also through to some other systems.
So that actually is my driving force. Think that we need to demystify the war being this superhero field in which you get to show your strength and courage. But I think the strength and courage are behind the table, and as rightfully Spasoje once said, spending days and days negotiating before you take arms. So yeah, that's what drove me to peacebuilding. And that's what still keeps me going.
I think Asim is here. If he can hear us, it would be great for him to also say something.
MELANI CAMMETT: Yes. I was going to see if we can turn to Asim. And then after that, I'm going to-- in the interest of time-- turn to some of the excellent questions from the Q&A. So, Asim, if you're there, very briefly, if you could share a little bit about a quick summary of your experience before the war, during the war, after, how you got to where you are now, that would be great. And then, I'm going to turn to some of these excellent questions. Do we have Asim?
ASIM: [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
INTERPRETER: Good evening to everyone. I'm very sorry that I had technical difficulties and couldn't join right away. I'm joining you now over the phone. Before the war, I was born in a working family in a very small place, Zavidovici and the middle of Bosnia.
And until the war, I lived in a building that housed the railway station because my father was a railroad worker, and we had an apartment there. So at the railway station, I also completed my elementary school here-- eight-year elementary school. I had to cross 8 kilometers to school every day and 8 kilometers back.
And then in mid-eighth grade, I was asked-- there was a competition to apply to a military school, and I applied and was admitted. And so it was a military academy in Belgrade where I spent four years. And that military academy was a high school, and that was the basis for continuing to go to a real military academy in the former Yugoslavia.
So after finishing this military high school, I enrolled in the military academy in Belgrade where I spent two years. I was in an auto mechanic unit. I completed it in Banja Luka. At the military academy, I got the rank of officer and started working in Pristina.
That was where my first job position was. And I spent four years there until the beginning of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina. And I was in Pristina until the beginning of the war. And then at my request, I left former JNA and came back to Zavidovici, my home town.
And I spent the entire war there. After the war, I retired as an officer of the armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And I'm currently retired. I'm married. I have one child, and I live in Zavidovici.
MELANI CAMMETT: OK. Thank you so much. And I'm going to turn to some of these questions, but I want to also emphasize that all of these veterans and now peace activists are doing a lot of important work reaching out into their communities and doing a lot of public events, whether it's in schools, community, organizations, or whatever it might be to try to share the important lessons they've learned from their experiences and to promote more peaceful relations in their societies.
So in some of our answers, hopefully we can get a taste of the kinds of activities that they're engaging in because I think that will relate to some of the questions we're getting here. So let me try to pose-- package up some of these questions together because we really have some excellent questions here. And sometimes, they're directed at a particular panelist, but I think they actually apply to everyone here, particularly to the veterans.
So from Muhammad Ishaqzaade, we have a question about what the reaction of one's community is when you try to reach out to former rivals to seek reconciliation and forgiveness. And also, and how do people from different communities respond to this?
We've had a little bit of taste of this when, for example, Janana talked about how her landline was getting inundated with not just positive messages, but negative messages as well. So I'd like to pose this question to the panelists. And I'd also like to group it together with some related questions that are coming in from some of our guests here who are calling in from Bosnia or are originally Bosnian.
One of our guests notes that their family continues to struggle with forgiveness-- forgiveness is not easy-- and have passed on the idea of fear and distrust of members of other communities and even of close friends, who they say can betray you. So how would you counsel the parents of children who've lived through the war to speak about this with their children to help facilitate conversations about forgiveness and growth in relationship building?
And then one more question I'd like to pose to put with this group of questions-- a related question is, what message can you send to young people nowadays who are expressing hate and even violence on the basis of national, ethnic, or religious differences against their neighbors? So if we could address those sets of questions about drawing on your experiences, what advice would you give, and how are you working to promote forgiveness and reconciliation?
And what kinds of reactions have you received from other members of your societies, especially from your own community? So, Assaad, I'm going to turn to you to start with this. I know you have a lot to say about this. We've talked about this in the past.
ASSAAD CHAFTARI: Yes, indeed, we did. In fact, there are some things that the government or a state should do at the end of a war. And sadly, in Lebanon, for example, we did not go through any process of reconciliation apart from our politicians sitting together maybe and dividing the cake.
But at the level of the grassroots, nothing was done. And anything related to the transitional justice process was not done. The only thing done was an amnesty law-- an unconditional amnesty law, sadly-- and recently, two or three years ago, a department to look for the disappeared and take care of their families. These were the only things done.
And the parties, or the groups, or the militias which took part in the civil war were not dismantled, and which were also the communities are still there. And they are still hoping to keep a good image for the future in front of those who are facing still between brackets facing them. So someone from this group going out and saying, listen, guys, I'm sorry for what I did, and I want to reconcile with the other is like an act of-- it's like you are a traitor.
They consider you as a traitor. While my surprise was to see that the reception from the other side was surprising, was so generous. It's as if they were they're waiting for a Christian person to come forward and say, listen, guys, we're sorry we did very bad things-- and not accuse them also of these things.
One should not-- when apologizing, should not give reasons why he did this or did that. A bad thing is a bad thing. This is important.
An apology should not be political only. It should come from the heart. It should come from the conscience and so on.
Now, regarding forgiveness, it's a very, very difficult thing. It's difficult to forgive, and it's also difficult to come forward asking for forgiveness. And I mean, and not all cases, you can see someone, a perpetrator, come forward and saying to a victim's family, please forgive me.
So it makes it more difficult for the families to [AUDIO OUT] without seeing someone in front of them explaining what happened. That has to be done to heal the hearts and heal the future because the one who carries hatred in his heart, the others are not feeling it. He is the one suffering from it. This is what I try to explain to people who come forward to take my advice.
Now, for the youth, they should understand, as the Madam Hamidovic said, that hatred, non-communication, violence, war are not something that you can do easily and get out easily. It's not only about facing the other in a war or something where you are the hero, and they have to lose, or one of the two sides have to lose. In wars, everybody loses. And this is very important to understand.
The ones who win lose somewhere. And those who lose lose, of course. So it's important to teach them that war is not the answer.
Violence is not the answer. There are tens if not hundreds of answers before something that we should never reach mean, which is the military violence, and that living together is really much more beautiful than any day during the war. We should always stress on how ugly it was, how hard it was, how bloody it was, and that it's never the answer.
MELANI CAMMETT: Thank you so much. Spasoje, would you like to jump in?
SPASOJE KULAGA: [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
INTERPRETER: Yes. First, I see in this conversation that this internet is really against us veterans because we have this problem here. We veterans have this problem, as I can see. And to us, it is really important, and our model of work is to hear the voice of veterans.
And I'm very sorry Mirko couldn't come to join us because the model of our work of our association is to hear from all three parties in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and so that we have three narratives when we talk. And we really want this to happen. And these technical problems are really making this difficult for us. And this is reminding us of our first meeting.
And many international organizations and institutions do not want to work together with war veterans. And we have a big problem here because they don't want to, from some reasons. Part of the veteran population is to the right, and it is with the politics. But there is a generalization that they don't want to work with the veterans, and they do not want to cooperate with them.
The reaction of the community where we live-- these reactions are-- I can say some are judging us, and the others are saying that we are doing a good work. And the third, they are just quiet. So some are judging us. We do have some encouragement and support, and we have some that say nothing. They don't want nothing to do with it.
My approach to forgiveness-- it's a big thing. I also take part in many programs where you address the victim, whether the victim was a civilian or a soldier. You have to talk. If you do that to the victim and if you do this from a ethnical group, and if you go where all these happenings were, I will be judged from my own group.
So not many people will support me on this territorial part of Bosnia and Herzegovina where you have the Republic of Srpska and the Federation, and we have also division of three people. And it's very difficult when you do a human gesture and when you honor the ones that were lost. Then, the other side can shame you because you either were the traitor to your own, or, in a way, you are judged from the other side because you shouldn't be appearing here where all these killings happened.
So in this country, whatever you do, in a way, you are always under the looking glass. And we want to honor the people who were lost. So we people, the civilians, want to do something that is good in our program.
As I said, we have three veterans in our program, and they work with the youth, and they see the constructive use of veterans experiences the program. And we are very proud of this program because the experiences of the war veterans are important to prevent violence among the youth. And they need to hear from us, from me, and ask them how it was to be in the war, how it is to see all those killings, and how is it to live with all this? And here is the hidden answer.
How do you work with the youth? And what is it that we counsel them? We don't give them advice, but we give them a chance to talk with the war veterans and hear their experiences. And then, they are aware enough to learn from these experiences and to realize that war is not an interesting experience, that there are consequences to the war.
And so we do not have enough resources to talk about how it affects the family too and how women participated and the young people. And we have a lot of workshops here in Bosnia and Herzegovina that we deal with, and we encourage them to work together, work with the parents. We want to live.
Your parents were in many different circumstances. And they could be poisoning us with some things what we went through. And we want them to be educated and to be engaged in this association.
Very often, we encounter a judgment of Veteran Association in Republika Srpska. I'm sorry. He's breaking up. I could not hear.
MELANI CAMMETT: OK, it looks like we lost him, but I know Luciano wants to jump in. And then, I'm going to pose one or two more questions because we have about 10 minutes left.
LUCIANO KALUZA: OK, Spasoje gave me a great intro. Maybe for your next question, I don't think that about politicals and, generally, the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina. He gave me that great intro when he said, from all sides, he get association give reaction from one side, the second side, and the third side. We have to be honest towards ourselves and to our international community.
Bosnia and Herzegovina is deeply divided society. It's deeply divided because of a different and complex set of historical cultural, political reasons. They are primarily along ethnic and religious lines with three major ethnic groups. Maybe just the people to know that the Bosniaks, and Bosnian Muslims, Croats, the Catholics from Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Serbs, Orthodox Christians. And also, there is so-called the Others, the people that are not belong one of those three groups.
And this division is not started on 1992. 1992 was just the continuation of the previous period. And the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina, I get the autonomy. And I said it that it's just continuation of the Second World War. But also, Second World War did not start because of itself in former Yugoslavia.
Also, there is roots before-- so complex situation, historical situation after the Ottoman Empire in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Austria-Hungary empire in this area provides different cultural and historical narratives. So all the way, we have that so-called lines that are going among us with the lines of division, and even from 1945 when the socialist federative Republic of Yugoslavia was created, even in that period when the people trying to make that division unvisible, they still persist in the people.
There was there in the people. No one work with the people from 1945 to 1992 with dealing with the past. No one worked with them and to see what happened in 1994. As Spasoje said in the beginning, some of the war crimes in Bosnia and Herzegovina was repeated from the war crimes that happened, let's say, almost in the same area in the Second World War that give us a point that we need to work more on process dealing with the past.
And when we are talking about the reconciliation, I like to say that it is very hard to achieve reconciliation on the way that is written in the books, that we have to forgive. We said, OK, now we will make reconciliation, and we will be happy in the world. I think that we need to work on our reconciliation of our attitudes, that we have to understand that the Bosnia and Herzegovina is deeply divided politically, especially, but also by ethnic and religious line, to understand that division is present here, and we need to adopt it like that and start to act in line with that. We can't build one nation in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
You know that there was that period in Austria-Hungary in Kingdom, let's say, when there was-- after the Congress of Berlin, there was appointed a person who was called Benjamin Kalla. He works a lot to try to create one nation in Bosnia and Herzegovina. And there was strong movements from Serbia and from the Croat side. We can't go in that direction. We need to work with the people with the people attitudes.
Serbian people feel the most comfortable with the Serbian majority. Bosnia people feel most comfortable with the Bosniak majority. And Croat people feel most comfortable with the Croat majority. But that does not mean that we need to hate each other. That does not mean that we have to point fingers to others and say, look who you are and look what you are looking on and try to establish society that will go to the European Union, healthy society with all our specifics in the religion and the ethnic background.
And there is also-- somehow when we are trying to build our society, somehow when we are trying to build our society, there is always influence from some other side that somehow try not to give us that possibility to do that. I'm also in favor that in Bosnia and Herzegovina need to negotiate more and to find common decision in the context of political situation and especially toward the European Union. I think that sometimes-- and I talk quite often in our media, especially in the Republic of Srpska, and I often say that sometimes the international organizations help but this after the war period and help us lots to create and try to rebuild our society in some sort of economic, social, and any other ways.
They help us to with things that maybe we alone could not do that in such a fast period. But now somehow they are trying to stop us to do things that we need to do. There is someone from the side said, OK, that what you are trying to achieve between yourself that is not good we will tell you what is maybe the best for you. I think that period is over. The period of strong influence of international community in Bosnia and Herzegovina need to stop and give the people in Bosnia and Herzegovina a leader, politicians even.
The people don't like politicians in Bosnia and Herzegovina. OK, I think the people don't like politicians anywhere in the world. Let's say that. They don't like them in the France. They don't like them in the Germany.
But they are elected, and they need to take-- of course, they're elected. They have obligations. So Bosnia-Herzegovina do have some sort of future. Just in context if Bosnia-Herzegovina negotiate among ourselves, not waiting from someone else from the other side to be part of our internal decision making.
And in that context, I'm looking this period of so-called, as I said, reconciliation of attitudes to speak about the war, to speak about pre-war period, after the war period, and do everything not to stop the possible the movements or to stop the possible even thinking that the war is a solution for something. War is not-- and conflicts are no solution for anything. And I do believe that we will never have war in Bosnia and Herzegovina, I would like to say, in the region.
I definitely want to be positive and think that we finished with all of it. We need to build our society to have our youth, to have our children, to educate them to be the best sports in the scientists in Europe and give us from us to give the best to the world in that context. I think that we alone in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and with the help of those veterans-- those veterans give strong influence of building normal society.
Just to listen to them what they have to say. What is the war? What is the trauma? And how do they live now and in this period after the war? They have so much to say, and we can build society with mutual respect. We can build society common, equal, one society. We can build society on a mutual respect and mutual respect. And that is what my intention is, just to have mutual respect without all differences that we are living here.
At the end, when you walk into a garden, you would like to see many different flowers with different colors and everything. It's much beautiful to see it like that and try somehow to organize it to live in that garden without any problems. And I think that is the main future of Bosnia and Herzegovina, to reduce the influence of international community and to give more strength to the people from Bosnia and Herzegovina to make their own decisions. Sorry for taking the time.
MELANI CAMMETT: Thank you. Thank you so much. That's really valuable. Before I turn to you, Janana and our veterans from Lebanon and Bosnia-Herzegovina, I just want to say, we won't unfortunately have time to get at all of these excellent questions.
We only have a couple of minutes left. But I want to highlight some of the important themes that our attendees have raised about the role of memorials, for example, which may be important as part of the healing process for people, but under some conditions, can also be rather divisive as well. And I think the questions reflect this.
And also about the fact that here we are many years after these wars, and we have warlords from these wars that are holding political offices and remain the major political actors right now. And we have really ratcheting-up tensions. One of our questions from the audience raises the issue of early Warning signs.
What can we learn from your experiences about what to look for in the lead-up to war that maybe people missed back before the wars broke out in Bosnia and Lebanon? These are all important questions to think about that we don't have time to answer now. And obviously the situations are quite tense in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Lebanon. So if Janana, and then I'll turn to the veterans-- if you could each say just 30 seconds or less concluding remarks. Janana?
JANANA HAMIDOVIC: Yeah. I wanted one of the things. I saw two questions in the panel, which, actually, Melani, you also pointed out. One of these things was how to put the past to rest. And I think that what we heard also from Assaad and Luciano, what was in partially saying now, our experience here in Bosnia, as Luciano thoroughly explained previously, has taught us that we cannot put anything under the carpet.
And that is precisely why we support the work of the Pravi Paja veterans is because we believe that everybody deserves to say their truth. And we need to have a space in which people can express their own feelings, their own opinions, and moderating that, as Luciano was pointing out, with the respect toward each other because our experience for Balkans has taught us that as long as you are-- many truths were forbidden in our long history of many of hundreds years.
And many times, we have been under the-- how do you say, I'm trying to find the right word-- one narrative was opposed throughout the different times. And of course, the narrative was changing. And so I believe firmly that we need to put in our peacebuilding work here one different factor because if we keep doing the same thing throughout the past 100, 500 years expecting different results, well, not to be rude, but then we are fools.
So we need to change something in our approach. How do we deal with the past experiences? And how do we deal with those difficult topics without-- many would say-- and but Spasoje was speaking about that-- many would say and many critiques of their work would say that it's a relativization. It's making everybody-- you know, like everybody did everything. As said at the beginning, their work is not to speak about politic nature of the war. Their work is about to speak about human experience of the war, which majority of the war experience is-- how common people choose-- or not choose-- how they end up in war, and what is their behavior? What determines what their war experience is there?
And this is how we can put the past to rest, by speaking about what happened, by allowing people to share the experiences. And even if we don't agree with those, it's their truth. Many would say that Bosnia and Herzegovina, as Luciano was saying, that across the country, we have a different war experiences. Me knowing war experience from Stutzle doesn't make me expert on the war experience in Central Bosnia, or what happened in the western part of the country, or what happened in the northern part of the country.
I have to be able to open myself to hear the experiences of the people across the country to be able to understand and form some sort of opinion about the war. So that's one question. The second one-- and that's my last. I promise, that's it. I'm done.
Here, it's about to memorialization. I'm sorry this person didn't spoke more about that because I know for the fact that they do go around visiting certain memorials and paying respect to the victims in the different memorials. And know how much they have suffered by being in some of the places where, as he was putting it, they were not accepted to be there.
There is, however, a movement in the country who does memorialization. There is an organization called Center for Nonviolent Action. It's a regional initiative. They do amazing peacebuilding work across the region. And they do proper memorialization.
However, as I said, because, as Assaad was actually saying, regardless of the work we do on the higher levels, if we don't put it down to the very community who suffered, who experienced, who went through the war and discussed it there, everything you do up there has little effect. And also, speaking to the Bosnian experience when it comes to the war crimes court decisions, unfortunately, most of them were made in different country, miles away physically from the Bosnia and Bosnian court system.
So whenever the decision and the verdict was made for the war crimes in the country, we have left politicians and the media to spin it in a way that they felt suitable, depending which army the person who was convicted belonged. Without going down to the specific community that specific crime concerned to speak about them, what does that need to them, and how do they see this? Is why we still have a denial of the war crimes across the country. This is why we are still debating about the court verdicts because we haven't put it close to us. They have been made far away from us.
And it's not there. We don't feel it. So we have to change the way we do peacebuilding, although it hurts, although not everybody can agree with that.
But we have to be able to open up a space for people to truly share their experiences with respectable and understandable way. That's it. I'm sorry I took some time of you.
MELANI CAMMETT: Thank you. It's all incredibly valuable. Unfortunately, we are now over time, but I don't want to leave without letting our veterans say some parting words. So, Assaad, can I start with you very briefly?
ASSAAD CHAFTARI: Yes, very, very briefly. I would say that we should not despair from anybody or the possibility of changing anybody. And we always answer by saying that if we were able to change, if I was able to change, then anybody else can change. And thus, situations can change.
This is my first last message. The second one is that you should not isolate the politicians because we need them to listen to us. If we put them in a box and don't want to deal with you, I won't be of a help for them. They should listen to us to be able to change.
Thirdly, each one of us citizens can be the source of this change. And finally, we should not forget to work on those who nourish this divide culture, like education, educators, like media, like clergy maybe, and so on. So work on the level of grassroots of the elite, but also on the intermediary levels. Thank you so much.
MELANI CAMMETT: Thank you. Spasoje, very brief.
SPASOJE KULAGA: [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
INTERPRETER: Yes as far as today's panel, it's also dedicated to the Day of Peace. We are a veterans association. Tomorrow is the Day of Peace. And as such, we are working from the village, through the town, the town institutions, and all the way up to the top as far as we can go.
We start with the grassroots, go all the way to the top. We work on the terrain as well. We start with the small person, their family. If we establish peace there, we know that we've done a good thing.
As far as working with the youth, the youth is interested in that past. We have some experience there. And the youth have questions and want to learn about it. And I'm pleased because of that.
I'm an optimist. I'm hopeful because it motivates me for my work in the next period, that the young are interested in the past. They want to learn from it, so they don't repeat the mistakes that we had done by entering the war.
Janana said something about the commemorations. That's a big thing, going and bowing to the victims that belong to the other nations-- I personally participated in as a person. Regardless of all the judgments I experienced, the hand given to me by the family of the victims from the ethnic group that I don't belong to is a very big deal for me. Not everything is black.
Something like that shows me that something is changing in this country, and I will use that opportunity tomorrow to say that tomorrow on the Day of Peace something positive is changing and that someone who is a war veteran, and a peacemaker, and an activist will be pronounced the Peace Activist of the Year, and that will be me. And that kind of support from work that I get also gives me hope that there is somebody from the institution. I have very bad cooperation during all of these processes that we discussed today.
Thank you very much for the time that you spent with me, for the opportunity. This is a very big topic that requires long discussion and exchange of opinion. But I think that in the next period, we have established good contacts and we will be able to contribute to the peace in the world. Thank you for the support, and thank you so much to the interpreters and everybody from our association for giving me the opportunity to be here today. Thank you.
MELANI CAMMETT: Thank you. And I don't know if Asim wants to say something very briefly at the end if we have him on the line. OK, sounds like he's not connected.
But let me-- well, first of all, let me thank the amazing Weatherhead staff for facilitating this and for making this happen. We appreciate everything that you do. And I really want to thank the participants in this panel.
Each and every one of you is doing extraordinary work. I have said this to you previously. I'll say it again. If the world were filled with human beings like you, we would be in a much, much better place. So please keep up the excellent work that you're doing.
You're very inspirational. You can see from the messages we're receiving that you've touched many people, and we are grateful for the work that you've done. And we clearly have more work to do, and you are playing a very important part in this world in doing that work. So thank you very much for joining us.